Leaving a Community

[helwen]

Just left an LJ community. It had some interesting and useful stuff on it, but I don't like people who are casually insulting and think it's okay. Even less do I like someone commenting on said post and approving of said insult.

Regardless of how one feels about people with children (and believe me, I'm no fan of the occasional-bawling-child-in-close-and-inescapable-quarters), regardless of how one feels about population in our world, I don't like parents being referred to as "breeders". Do these people call their own parents "breeders"?

Rude, ill-mannered idiots.

Comments

[loosecanon.livejournal.com]

I find it hurtful how casually other non-parents can insult those who are parents, and those who are still young.
It taints, in a way, my own chosen childlessness.

One of the greatest things about the modern age is the ability to choose not to be parents, and in some cases, for those who could not have done so easily the "usual" way to be able when they wish to parent.

[druidharper.livejournal.com]

Perhaps said people should consider for a moment just where they'd be, or not be, if their own parents hadn't been 'breeders'...

Pretty sour attitude on the whole.

I actually expect to hear more of this over the coming years. Hope not, but expect to.

[oakmouse]

The only time I don't object to the term "breeder" is when it's applied to people like the Duggars. And even then, I think other terms would be the better choice.

Duggars

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Indeed, they're.... hm... "irresponsible" somehow seems inadequate. "Breeder" in reference to humans seems to imply reproducing without thought or purpose, and they're definitely not doing it without thought or purpose.

Re: Duggars

[oakmouse]

My personal understanding of the term may be a bit variant from the norm. I always thought it referred to people who popped out loads of kids. Still, as I said, I think other terms are better descriptors even of the Duggars.

Re: Duggars

[helwen.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing at this point it depends on who's saying it. Among some folks, one child is too many. Bad name and shouldn't be used at any rate.

Re: Duggars

[oakmouse]

I've dealt with eedjits who think we should all just go die off for the sake of the earth. They probably call anyone who hasn't gotten themselves sterilized "breeders". Ultimately it adds up to us-vs-them and insult. Not a good habit.

[flidaisairmid.livejournal.com]

I have had a lot of contact with people in the past who chose to be child free. We were without children for 10 years and it was assumed by many that it was our choice. Rather than being bitter about it , my warped sense of humor decided to classify ourselves, because of fertility problems as 'remedial breeders". Anytime I hear discussions of child free lifestyles, I remember my chosen definition and chuckle.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Ah, but it's different if you choose something for yourself, isn't it?

It's not a simple topic, by any means.

[flidaisairmid.livejournal.com]

Absolutely ! In the past several people assumed we were child free by choice, and that was quickly cleared up with dialog on the subject.After having it come up in several situations, my brain kind of invented the term as a private joke. I respect anyone who makes the decision to be child free, in the same manner that I respect anyone's decision to include children. it really is such an individual matter that comes about for a variety of reasons. Your post just jogged a funny personal memory .

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. When I first encountered online childfree communities (c. 1997), there was much more emphasis on support and education, and much less on parent-bashing. It's a shame that so many online communities in general have turned to bashing and snarking. (Come to think of it, I'm not wild about the SCA snark groups, either :-/)

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Does it seem like snarking and bashing and general lack of tolerance is increasing? Not just this but for all sorts of differences of opinion/faith/interest/etc.?

I guess I dislike the callousness and thoughtlessness behind this sort of labeling. Seems sometimes like I have to work more than I used to at reminding some folks (politely of course) that we all have different, um, qualities of which we should be grateful others are tolerant.

Uff. Glad I have the friends I do :)

Snarking

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it does seem as if online communication is meaner than before (OTOH, I remember some Usenet discussions that got *really* ugly).

The irony is that it's also getting harder to preserve online anonymity. I wonder whether the people in the snark communities realize this (or even care)....

[harpnfiddle.livejournal.com]

I hadn't heard that term. Since I had 3 kids (more than just replacing the 2 parents) I guess I am in trouble with that group even more. "Breeders", huh?

[helwen.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure when it started, and I'm not up-to-date on slang in general. I think I've been hearing it for maybe a year? Sometimes in younger groups (sci-fi/fantasy, other hobby activity groups), but also of course among some of the groups involved with peak oil, climate change, etc.

Problem with the overpopulation groups though, is that they tend to argue Zero repop, which aside from the fact it will never happen, would make humans go extinct (which is fine with some of them, actually). They don't bother though to differentiate between the resources used for each child around the world. There are vast differences in resources within each country, nevermind one country vs. another. Some adults -- no doubt including some of those arguing for no more kids -- use more resources than a whole family.

Responsibility is more important than numbers. Besides, one of yours is adopting right now -- kinda balances having three ;)

[the1butterfly.livejournal.com]

I remember somebody posted about children in my green group noting both the environmental problems and the problems in the world as reasons to not have children. I'll agree that we should limit how many kids we have (as much as large families fascinate me), but the latter doesn't even make sense. Yes there are problems in the world, but my children won't get the plague or polio, and will experience wonders and learn amazing things (plus I won't die in childbirth-yeah!). I think the problem is in part that people have trouble seeing beyond one aspect of things (such as their current situation), and seeing the larger pattern.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Also, see my response to harpnfiddle.

[prince-hring.livejournal.com]

I first heard the term as it was used by some gay friends of mine. They'd then go on to explain that, without breeders, the G&L population would vanish :-)

I've used the term, myself, on occasion... but in reference to people who are not actively engaged in parenting, but seem to have simply "let nature take its course" and are pretty much allowing their spawn to run to wild. Where I work, I see far too many of that sort of kid and I find it very difficult to respect those sorts of parents(?)... people(?)... the term "breeders" just seems to fit.

I'm sorry if it hits a raw nerve.

[bunnyjadwiga.livejournal.com]

I first heard the term "breeder" from some gay acquaintances also. (This would have been in 1988.)

Unfortunately, *I* had to be the one to point out that without breeders, there would be no more gay people, either.

My experience with the term 'breeder' in the gay community-- especially the gay male community-- is that it is similar to "shiksa" in Jewish social culture. People think it's not insulting, but it's got a long history of insultingness in that community.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

I guess it's a question of how specific the person is being. It's true some irresponsible people let their kids run wild (I've had my share of dealing with that at events), but it's also true that sometimes a kid is just having a bad day or maybe the lines were longer than expected and the kid is doing his/her best but is tired. The comment the person made in his post was pretty well pointed at anyone who was a parent however, not just irresponsible ones.

[nazrynn.livejournal.com]

The only time the term "breeder" is appropriate, for me, is with regard to animal or fish husbandry.

Reducing a fellow human being to a *thing* or animal is ugly, no matter which side of the fence is doing it. I don't care much for the abusive attitudes I have witnessed either, and while I don't engage with trolls if I can help it - neither does that mean I think nothing should be done about it. Have you written to the list moderator to explain your departure?

[gigglingwizard.livejournal.com]

Do these people call their own parents "breeders"?

Perhaps not to their faces, but my experience with such people has led me to the general conclusion that they're not very well adjusted. (I'm speaking specifically of the sorts of people that identify strongly with the label "childfree" and all the hostility toward parents and children that it entails, not just anyone who happens not to have children.) I would be rather surprised if they didn't get their negative attitudes about parents and children from their own childhood experiences.

Just a Data Point or Two....

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

Self-identifying as "childfree" does not automatically entail hostility toward parents and children. Nor does it follow that all childfree people had unpleasant childhoods. Some of us lead quite normal lives, and can slip undetected into polite society :->

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[bunnyjadwiga.livejournal.com]

So, it's the difference between the Evangelical Childfree and the Mainstream Childfree?

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

There is a hardcore "CF-er than thou" element on the edge of the CF spectrum (e.g. "If you aren't snipped, you aren't *truly* childfree")--but the case that inspired this thread sounds more like @$$hole Childfree vs. Non-@$$hole Childfree :->

Really, the only thing childfree people have in common is "don't have 'em, don't want 'em."

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[fitzw.livejournal.com]

Really, the only thing childfree people have in common is "don't have 'em, don't want 'em."

Some people don't have a choice, other than by employing extreme measures, or by adoption.

Semantics Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

Actually, the term "childfree" was coined to describe people who are happy about their nulliparous state.

I should stop now, because I don't want to highjack helwen's forum :-)

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[helwen.livejournal.com]

The case that originally inspired this post was indeed someone being altogether too general, casually declaring all parents to be a trial to non-parents (who are obviously superior).

But it's interesting to see where things have gone here.... I didn't expect this much response to one of my little rants.

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Some of them may not be well adjusted, and others are. It's never simple. I'm almost child-free -- I'm a stepmom and love my son Z, but he's never lived us for more than a few weeks at a time so not sure whether I'm counted as having a kid or not sometimes... but if we could have had kids we would have. And yet, I'm not crazy about all children. I don't like kids just because they're kids, which some people seem to do. I like a number of individuals who happen to be children at the moment.

So, people who don't know about Z, who's 20 now and lives in another state, might assume that L and I are childfree. Even some folks who do know think of us as childfree, in the sense of being free to do whatever we like and not have to think about the future. I think I find the the most peculiar type of childfree I've met -- people who have no concern or sense of responsibility for the environment or preserving it for the next generation, simply because they don't have children and they won't be around to see what happens.

Happily others do care, whether or not they have kids. I wonder if the other type simply have less ability to love, not just for children but in general? Hm. Hadn't really thought about that.

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

...if we could have had kids we would have.

I didn't know. I apologize if anything I said struck a raw nerve for you and/or L.

Re: Just a Data Point or Two....

[helwen.livejournal.com]

Oh no, not to worry, no harm at all.

Actually, good to know what the proper definition for childfree is. Thank you.

Definitions

[shalmestere.livejournal.com]

In the interest of full disclosure, not every happily-nulliparous person uses the term. In fact, I've encountered some unchilded-by-choice people who don't want to be associated with Those Horrible Childfree People. It's a pity that a bunch of wingnuts sullied a perfectly good descriptor :-/

Re: Definitions

[helwen.livejournal.com]

???? I will never understand some people.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

No. I suspect I'm older than the majority of the people on the list, including the moderators. I read the comments to see if there was any correction, and instead found the supportive comment. I don't think they'd listen.

[nazrynn.livejournal.com]

If the moderator won't correct this kind of abuse, it's time to go. There are much better things to do with one's time than become troll-bait in shark-infested waters.

*HUGS*